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Speed Loop again... but this time it's for real :) !

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Created by Manuel7 > 9 months ago, 8 Jun 2017
Manuel7
158 posts
8 Jun 2017 10:46PM
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Last year, I tried a couple but for some reasons never really committed.
For the past few days, I've been trying them and cannot stop myself from trying them during my sessions.
It seems like I'm not committing my front arm enough and not getting the pull needed to rotate before landing again.

A few examples:
I find body position not too bad, the front arm just need to be straighter and the sail doesn't have sufficient power to pull.



Here arms are fine but body and sail are leaning too far back.



So next the nose digs in, the sail loads up and ...



...smack!



mathew
VIC, 1621 posts
9 Jun 2017 6:52AM
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Your commitment looks good!

In the first pic, it looks like your back hand needs to be about 80cm further back on the boom... ie: nearly touching the boom-extension clip.

It also looks like you need a little bit bigger wave... it will help the tail clear the water. It doesn't need to be big, say 30cm, but it does need to be pretty steep.

windaddict
VIC, 1091 posts
9 Jun 2017 8:50AM
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Hi Manuel, in the first and second pics it s very apparent that your front arm is bent. It should be straight and forwards, also your back hand needs to be around your face once you have "thrown" the rig forwards. See below vid from Gem Hall at 1:23 how he throws his arms.



Initially, try to really throw the rig forwards and across (about 45 degrees into wind) really really hard, like really hard!! Think about punching with your front hand. When you throw the rig forward, do so until your front arm is straight and lock it there, your back hand will now be near your face. What this does is transfers the weight to the nose of the board lifting the fin out of the water which will help you spin.

In the pics it looks like your initial pop is good, but you are landing back on the tail of the board (pic 3) and your fin is grabbing and you are getting flung. You should be landing on the nose (fin clear of the water) and you would just spin around on your back without the violent catapult.

windaddict
VIC, 1091 posts
9 Jun 2017 11:37AM
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I remember this being posted a while back...good sequence of shots.

From right to left, look at pic 3 and 4, the front arm is straight, also pic 4 is where you want to be, nose down, tail up!



Manuel7
158 posts
9 Jun 2017 12:52PM
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Thanks for the awesome feedback! Much appreciated :)

Yes my boom is super low because I believe I rake the sail back, especially on my jumping side.
My front arm is bent as I'm choking the rig to avoid the rotation!
So today I worked on bringing the sail forward and my body more upright, this helped get a nice pull but I didn't trust it :D !
Anyway, a bit better, got some nice ah ha moments but the conditions weren't quite there. Gusty with lots of current and few waves.
I think I'm going to try to bring my freewave out too, just to get a better pop.
If I can commit the forward motion with the climbing of a piece of swell... should be pretty close to starting to rotate.

Manuel7
158 posts
9 Jun 2017 7:30PM
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Yesterday I also felt like I should get my front leg bent, this lets the board come up while keeping body straight to forward slightly.
Interesting how my surfing side feels more natural while my surfing side is not as committed. I think this shows that the front is more of a turn than a jump!

Here we can see that my front arm is a little straighter and feeling the pull I didn't look back as much to resist the rotation!!!



On my jumping side, I tend to let go of the back hand often. Maybe I need to work on steering the board farther downwind.



There it was not bad but lacked height clearly! (was a bit overpowered and not as comfortable as the other days)



And finally a bit of whiplash on this one, since I already got a good one from my jumping side, my sides are now even, fantastic!

windaddict
VIC, 1091 posts
10 Jun 2017 10:05AM
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Next tip: Practice on your couch. Punch the rig forward and simultaneously turn your head back. I reckon looking back will help you not to let go.

From those pics, I think both your hands are still not far enough back, look where your back hand is, no where near the boom clip. When learning you really need to reach right back to initiate the rotation.

When I loop, I spot my ramp, then move both hands right back so the front hand is touching the harness line and my back hand is really stretched out far down the boom. Get your hands in the right position really early, like while you are still sailing towards the ramp.

Manuel7
158 posts
10 Jun 2017 10:59AM
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Thank you, had really good ones today where my hand is farther back (I grab farther back once unhooked). The board hit the water downwind but I hung on and slid on my back as opposed to slap. Next step is to tuck rear leg under my butt and try to waterstart away!

Manuel7
158 posts
10 Jun 2017 7:32PM
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Yesterday, on one of my 3 attempts surfing side (see more below for the longer story), I spot a small ramp and back up my rear hand, unhook, back up my hand more, then pop and back up my hand even more(!), I had no idea I was doing this, my take is that it's the experience from doing exercices.

I take off while turning downwind on the wave, move my sail forward lifting up on the boom, and feel the sail power up and the rotation starting. The board hits the water because I'm not tucked in enough. I don't let go and complete the rotation sliding on my back.

So if I can keep my front arm straight all along, tuck my rear foot under my butt, I think I can take the board with me. Everything else will improve over time. I am so stoked, unbelievable the progress with each attempt... and even more day to day. Strange things happen over night!

Ok now you are wondering why only 3 attempts?

Well yesterday morning, I woke up and all was well, then a back pain started to develop as if I had pulled a muscle in my back. It was strange since I had done so many attempts without issues? Well maybe I hit the water harder the day before. I'm quite stiff and it hurts a little while taking a deep breath. Well then, I thought, no fronts for today...

I go out sailing easy, all my muscles are fine. So I'm not quite sure what happened. Then, the conditions start getting more friendly and I can't help myself from trying! I start with one and get a bit of rotation while in the air, oooo I say to myself, that's much better! Falling in doesn't hurt so now I think I must have hurt myself on the other tack, maybe?

Next, I do the attempt described above, super happy, I say to myself, let's celebrate with a good backloop, full steam, I spot a ramp and BAM I land flat on the side of my rib cage, aaaaaaah, that's where the pain comes from!!! Ouch!! It was from a back not a front :D !

After some recovery time, I tried one more front a bit shy due to pain (but with a good feeling) and I went to eat some pasta.

Voil?, next step, tuck under rear foot and try to keep the board under me!

Here is the attempt, doesn't look like much but getting power in the sail and starting the rotation in the air is a big step... forward :D !



geared4knots
TAS, 2341 posts
10 Jun 2017 9:40PM
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Jem hall techniques are really the way to go.
i learnt on both tacks with..
YOU go dead downwind and find small chop , only needs to be 6 inches high, ( both tacks i learnt on flat water)
, jump with front arm extended across the nose ( i.e scissor jibe),
look behind and sheet in really fast.

LOOK BEHIND WILL GET YOU ROUND EVERY TIME!!!

As long as you leave the water and follow above you will at least get round onto your back,

continue this and and go faster and higher and tuck legs in TO backside and you will be landing dry, eventually.
Later on you will be able to take off more across the wind and bear off in the air before looping



honestly, this is the easiest way, build up from slow downwind 'jumps' landing on your back, to full on half mast high take off loops.
It works, trust me., you dont have to be twenty years old, any reasonable sailor 20, 30, 40, 50 years old can do it.
60 , 70 years. seek expert tuition

windaddict
VIC, 1091 posts
11 Jun 2017 8:42AM
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Heres a good example of a very low, flat and most importantly not scary loop.

Id say your not that far off this stage now manuel!

Manuel7
158 posts
11 Jun 2017 1:02PM
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I can't wait!!! I'm hoping to repeat that type of loop but keeping the board under me, then I will figure how to waterstart from underwater !!!

Manuel7
158 posts
12 Jun 2017 11:45AM
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1:16 1:25 that's me!

Manuel7
158 posts
13 Jun 2017 11:00PM
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windaddict, do you know how many tries got the rider to this point?

windaddict
VIC, 1091 posts
14 Jun 2017 8:12AM
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Manuel7 said..
windaddict, do you know how many tries got the rider to this point?


No idea mate..besides everyone will be different depending on there commitment/fear levels/conditions etc.

Just keep doing what you are doing every session, your fear will slowly erode away and you will naturally push further until you stick one.

gmitton
SA, 1175 posts
14 Jun 2017 7:24PM
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Impressive

Manuel7
158 posts
14 Jun 2017 8:23PM
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Makes sense. Definitely like the style of loop where the mast doesn't feel like it's about to slam straight into the water.
I wish we had the various stages of learning but that's why I'm here, recording every bit of progress :) !

Yesterday's very rushed attempts (super light conditions), I forget all about throwing my front hand forward.



windaddict
VIC, 1091 posts
15 Jun 2017 8:32AM
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Out of interest, where do you live/sail Manuel? We are in a big doldrum period here in Vic/Aus, you seem to be getting wind every day!

Manuel7
158 posts
15 Jun 2017 9:18AM
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Yeah this is windy season... and I do need the wind because it's been surf sailing for a long time or overpowered gusty. Now is fairly manageable, small waves and winds around 20-25 knots. I live in Cabarete.

Today's attempts, I'm not quite sure what I concentrated on doing... I think my brain is totally confused!

1. On my jumping side, it looks like I'm too far upwind, the sail pulls and I can't stay sheeted in. Backing up rear hand could help.

2. ?



Snarky
WA, 9 posts
15 Jun 2017 9:51AM
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I struggled to nail forwards for quite a few years, at a similar (and quite frustrating) stage. For me to key factor (emphasis on key) to success was committing the body weight forward, even before leaving the ramp / chop. Looking at your photos, the weight seems too far back when initiating the motion. If you focus on one thing, that that is throwing your body forward on the approach and during lift-off, so by the time the board leaves the water you are already in front of your gear and in a safe position, then it is just a matter of the usual motions (i.e. board nose downwind, rig forward, pull-in with back hand, and look back) to spin the rest of the way ensuring at worst you land on your back. Think of it as trying to do the most efficient and fast catapult possible!

I found a lot of the tutorial videos do not put nearly enough emphasis on using your body weight and getting it forward. As I'm progressing I'm find that the body weight commitment is less important as you go higher, since you have more time to rely on rig steering to generate the rotation, but the problem when learning is that we are not as efficient with the motion, and we are also lower to the water with less air time.

Just my two cents worth, but as I say, for me this was the key.

Best of luck. Bring on summer in Western Australia, been so long since I've been on the water.

Mark

Manuel7
158 posts
15 Jun 2017 10:29AM
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Thanks Mark, I did try to focus on weight forward. Of course it's so little commitment, since it feels really odd throwing the move, that I think it's hardly perceptible. On my surfing side I feel like it's better but the ramps were awful on that side today.

One reason why I'm so far back is because I'm focusing on the jump to get air. I feel like if I lean forward them I'll absorb the jump and not release the tail.

I believe that's the key though I don't know where to place my body. On one attempt with a bit more air time, I can see myself wiggling to try and feel the rotation like a fish out of the? water.

Incredible how my boardless exercises look so much different. I'm going to try to absolutely land with the sail sheeted in all the way and go from there.

geared4knots
TAS, 2341 posts
15 Jun 2017 6:11PM
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Best of luck. Bring on summer in Western Australia, been so long since I've been on the water.




You poor Bloke!, WA just had your windiest summer in 20 years. they are still sailing Sunset Gero down the line today ( according to a mate of mine up there),
Come to the Eastern states and then you will suffer withdrawal

Roy
VIC, 84 posts
15 Jun 2017 10:06PM
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+1 for being too far back (although Im definitely no forward expert!)

Check out this video around 3min mark, it might give you some good tips.

Manuel7
158 posts
16 Jun 2017 12:14AM
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At 3:00 above he is talking exactly this about going forward and the board sticking. I don't have that problem on my surfing side because of the boom being higher. His forward around the 3:00 mark too has so much wymaroo in it, it's nice and not so scary!

What it looks like on vid (quick and dirty)...

Stuthepirate
WA, 3327 posts
16 Jun 2017 12:44PM
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watching that vid it looks like you're getting the board going in the right direction but there is no rig movement (none) that will promote rotation hence you are landing sideways with forward momentum and falling in backwards.
Next time your water starting practice and really emphasise the loop techniques without your feet in the straps. You should be able to rotate almost all the way around

windaddict
VIC, 1091 posts
16 Jun 2017 4:40PM
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From the vid, you are clearly still landing on the tail of the board. You need to land on the nose so you can slide around. As soon as you land, your fin is grabbing and throwing you off. Snarky is on the money, you need to let your body go forwards to shift the weight to the front of the board and promote a tail up /nose down landing. Practice doing some pops with nose landings.

Snarky
WA, 9 posts
16 Jun 2017 2:56PM
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Manuel7 said..
Thanks Mark, I did try to focus on weight forward. Of course it's so little commitment, since it feels really odd throwing the move, that I think it's hardly perceptible. On my surfing side I feel like it's better but the ramps were awful on that side today.

One reason why I'm so far back is because I'm focusing on the jump to get air. I feel like if I lean forward them I'll absorb the jump and not release the tail.

I believe that's the key though I don't know where to place my body. On one attempt with a bit more air time, I can see myself wiggling to try and feel the rotation like a fish out of the? water.

Incredible how my boardless exercises look so much different. I'm going to try to absolutely land with the sail sheeted in all the way and go from there.


You make a good point about focusing on the jump to get the board in the air, hence being back - this is an issue, and one I had too. For me it was so much easier focusing on getting the body going forward when there was a ramp to hit, or even a swell with a peak, since the board naturally leaves the water with little effort. Coronations in WA is ideal for this. Of course this relies on having ramps! I think if you find a location with some small ramps and just focusing on doing what you are doing, but with more & earlier forward body momentum, then you'll get it.

Maybe take a step back and focus on literally jumping your body forward into a catapult and around the mast whilst planing (although best to be at a sensible speed, and to bear the nose of the board away - wouldn't want to crack it!), and doing the usual throw, look, pull. From the latest video your body weight is still too far back and essentially holding you back in my humble opinion.

Best of luck - you'll get there.

Snarky
WA, 9 posts
16 Jun 2017 2:58PM
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geared4knots said..



Best of luck. Bring on summer in Western Australia, been so long since I've been on the water.





You poor Bloke!, WA just had your windiest summer in 20 years. they are still sailing Sunset Gero down the line today ( according to a mate of mine up there),
Come to the Eastern states and then you will suffer withdrawal



True, it was a good summer, but it soooo short! October to early Feb this year (in Perth), then gone. Need to get to Gero more.

windaddict
VIC, 1091 posts
16 Jun 2017 6:28PM
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Check out this vid of my mate Adam learning to loop, I am following him on my helmet cam, he doesn't stick it, but see how he throws the rig really hard to windward and allows his weight to go forwards...


Manuel7
158 posts
16 Jun 2017 7:09PM
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ok, how about introducing more veering off motion on my jumping side? Meaning a hard carving motion with horizontal rotation on the wave? I find it less scary to commit than jump over my gear and throw mast forward.

Either way, little by little there's a bit more rotation and air time each time so I should stay sheeted in at some point! It'll also send me more downwind. On my surfing side I'm able to hang on for longer.

So the idea is, try and back up rear hand (hard not to oversheet when sailing), carve hard off the wave and pick up rotation momentum tucking board under me.

Yesterday I tried leaning forward at the pop but left the board on the water. Hard to separate board pop and forward motion! Maybe the carving off the wave will help?



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"Speed Loop again... but this time it's for real :) !" started by Manuel7