I think Sam said that his quiver would be a couple of dual skins on the smaller sizes end with a couple of single skins on the larger sizes but nothing required over 5 for him.

Leighbreeze said..

So Rob are you waiting for PPC new single skin?Or it may not be available for this season.

Yeah not sure now maybe jumped the gun on selling my Quest , what would you recommend ?

Retina said..
I heard from a person (has 4m and 3m) that they are easier/better then hybrid . In drainage and maneuvers. Is that true?

I've owned the 2.5/3.1 (3.1 demo) Hybrid and 2.7/3.5 Orbit.

I think the Orbit is the winner for drainage. The Hybrid cells are a little more constricted where the water exits. I think we are talking about a difference of single digit seconds here.

3.1 Hybrid vs 3.5 Orbit is tough to say. The Hybrid had WAY more top end in my experience but that also means it was juicy wind when I tested it (gusting over 40 knots) so light wind handling might vary. The 3.5m Orbit became definitively less fun over 30 knots and since I owned that one I definitely got more time in on it. Neither seemed noticeably better or worse than the other though. I just remember appreciating that I didn't have to worry about the Hybrid line length vs the Orbit which needed to be stashed faster.

2.5 Hybrid vs 2.7 Orbit though.... That 2.5 Hybrid is an absolute joy. Super snappy/playful, short lines, fast upwind, the only one of the 4 I tried that I felt like was a must have after 1 session. The 2.7 Orbit is definitively better than the 3.5 Orbit when it comes to maneuvers but it still has comparatively long lines (116cm for the Hybrid and 147cm for the Orbit) vs the Hybrid which is less playful in my experience.

2.5 Hybrid vs 2.7 Orbit: 116cm vs 147cm = 31cm difference.
3.1 Hybrid vs 3.5m Orbit: 129cm vs 152cm = 23cm difference.
4.2 Hybrid vs 4.5 Orbit: 152cm vs 160cm = 8cm difference.
5.7 Hybrid vs 5.9 Orbit: 176cm vs 178cm = 2cm difference.

So, you can see the that the lines get closer with the larger sizes. My takeaway having ridden these is that difference sizes in difference lineups are going to be better for different riders. Difference strengths and weaknesses for each size in each range.

AnyBoard said..
This is great information.


Wouldn't it make sense though for most people to be comparing say the 4.2 hybrid against the 3.5 orbit based on the orbit still getting off the water in lighter wind. Even the 3.1 hybrid is not reported to get off the water in low end any where near the 2.7 Orbit. I haven't ridden these wings but I have a 2.7 orbit coming and the advice was to size it like a single skin for the bottom end yet the general advice for the hybrid is that you will need at lest one good size bigger than a single skin.
Maybe i went too small on the orbit?

That's a good question and interesting angle to come from for sure. It would make the top end line up better for 3.5 Orbit vs 4.2 Hybrid, both of which seem to go to 30 knots and then start to run into issues above that. If comparing the 3.1m Hybrid vs the 2.7m Orbit the low end may be similar, but I don't have enough experience on those two to be decisive. Orbit will potentially be snappier to fly, but the 3.1 top end destroys the 2.7m Orbit top end IMO.

I should have a few more days on the Hybrid 2.5 soon. Here's a comparison for you:

Orbit 2.7 session: This was my last session with the Orbit, sold it after this one.


Hybrid 2.5m session: Super fun, felt like immortality.


Out during peak winds for both sessions. You can see the Hybrid day was horribly gusty.

AnyBoard said..
Thanks for that.
I guess with wind ranges like that its more about sizing up enough to survive the lulls on foil because there is always going to be a gust strong enough to get you on foil in circumstances like that on almost any size.


I am hoping a 2.7 Orbit works in our 20 knot average to 30 gusts and makes it a lot more comfortable and safer than a 2.4 PR v1. This would represent our frontal winds with our thermal winds sitting in the 15 to 20 knots averages and ok on a single skin.

Let us know for sure. For me, 20 knot average would be too low for the 2.7 Orbit on my kit. 20kts was just barely enough for me to catch a gust with the 3.5m to get on foil.

Here, I usually try to rig a sail that can't get up in the lulls but can survive the gusts. I prefer to wait out the soft stuff over getting wrecked by the peak winds!

First session on 4.5 orbits, really enjoyed it, upwind is excellent. Harder to get up in light wind, but once up it goes upwind well. Frigate v1 has better low but doesn’t go upwind as well until it’s very powered (still 10 degrees less angle or more).

overall very happy with purchase as of now. Feels like a lot to learn to maximize the wing, but also really fun on first sesssuon

Piros said..

Leighbreeze said..

So Rob are you waiting for PPC new single skin?Or it may not be available for this season.

Yeah not sure now maybe jumped the gun on selling my Quest , what would you recommend ?

Probably the PPC Orbit 4.3m

Hi Bryan, what’s your next smallest wing to the 2.5 hybrid and at what wind strength do you switch down? Any tracks or impressions of upwind angle and speed of 2.5 hybrid vs 2.7 orbit? Cheers

You can find an interesting comparison on the foilstate website but I can't put the link in this post

I've just finished my review on the Orbit 4.5m, should be out within a few days. I now have a 777 Hybrid 4.5m in for review...... I'm finding the 777 a lot easier to live with.
The Orbit for me was a real one trick pony - go high upwind in comfort, that's it, nothing else. If that's what you want - and you might if you are going miles upwind, then buy one.
It's definitely not for me - I like to do a few more things than just go upwind at a high angle comfortably. Everything else I did on the Orbit I found really quite frustrating - apart from handle pass gybes, which it does pretty well.

I think the overall lesson from it for me was I really don't like double skins - even ones with trim lines for low end power. The 777 Hybrid - I've not made any firm decisions on yet, it does some things I like , some things I don't like but it is a bit more of a mixed bag than the Orbit.

PPC orbit 3.5m review 25-40knot gusts. El Medano.
98kg rider. 2mm wetsuit.
105l Paradox board.
Code 1130s, long fuse, 151r tail with 1 degree leading edge down shim.
First impressions of the PPC orbit 3.5m in well powered to overpowered conditions and a comparison to the Hybrid 4.3m. I have included mainly riding tips that I hope others can learn from.
Take off:
Don’t pump it! It will lead to a collapse of some sort or a back stall. Plane the board and then pump the legs. A 3.5m is still a 3.5m the PAL doesn’t give it the low end of a larger parawing. It would be interesting if someone could compare a power pack 3.6m to the orbit 3.5m just on take off.
When launching pull in the PAL to what you need. Too much and expect a back stall. Hand position goes further up the bar as the PAL is sheeted in. I aimed for 50% and it worked fine. Aim the board downwind and point the board at the LE. Gain speed and pump the board onto foil. Gain more speed by going downwind with the PAL sheeted in and then once at cruising speed release the PAL and turn hard upwind.
Manoeuvres
When adequately powered I sheeted in the PAL to 50% before a manoeuvre. Handle passes, C-line, A-line gybes and standard gybes worked fine. The easiest was probably the handlepass as the canopy remained inflated and it just accelerated out of the turn. For the other gybe variations it felt very intuitive if you are used to riding a hybrid.
As the wind increased I sheeted out the PAL at the apex of my turn to allow full acceleration out of the gybe. This worked really well and felt much more comfortable riding toeside. In overpowered conditions you can do all of the standard gybes with the PAL also sheeted out.
General piloting & upwind:
Hand positioning is everything. For two handed riding with the PAL fully released I found having my front hand at the top of the bar and back hand on the bottom of the bar was optimal. Then I could “t-Rex” with my back hand and sheet in and out to adjust the power. Alternatively put the harness line on at the very top of the bar and use the backhand to sheet in and out. For one handed flying slightly forward of the centre of the bar was optimal. Again with the PAL sheeted all the way out ideally.
When adjusting the PAL you need to have one hand on the bar. If the positioning is off 5mm then expect a wingtip collapse or some strange behaviour. Within a session i was getting used to finding the perfect balance point on the bar so that the parawing was trimmed. However adjusting the PAL whilst flying can be tricky and not friendly ergonomically. Reaching for and adjusting the PAL line whilst focusing on all the other aspects of foiling wasn’t the easiest thing to do.
Riding upwind was insanely comfortable. It was a completely new parawing experience for me. Like others have said on podcasts the upwind sailing became so much fun. I could point as high as I like (at Montana Roja - SW wind) and at the same spot my hybrid 4.3m would take 2-3 tacks and I could do it on one with the orbit.
Overpowered conditions 35-40knots:
Do not have the PAL sheeted in at all in strong conditions. It will lead to a wingtip collapse.
Even with the PAL sheeted fully out i was water starting without the need to pump. Edging hard and pointing upwind was the best way to reduce the load. “Soft bar pressure” didn’t apply here. If I started going crosswind then the board accelerated extremely quickly and I got a sudden change of front to back foot pressure leading to nose dives (a baseplate shim is needed).
Sometimes when overpowered the orbit would violently swing up and down in the wind window which could easily cause a collapse, reinflation and an aggressive surge towards the edge of the wind window. To manage this I tilted my front hand slightly down so the LE wouldn’t be inclined to race to the zenith when a gust hit. This felt much more comfortable.
With the weather station showing gusts up to 39-40knots, the end of the session felt like surviving. Smoke on the water and the wingers (of those who were left) were on 2.5m wings. The spot then got dominated by windsurfers and the foilers went in. Half way through my session the knot of the C line got ripped out from the bar. I thought it would be a session ender but I could still fly and continue the session albeit making a technically difficult parawing even harder to fly.
Stashing and redeploys
Point downwind and the orbit falls out of the air instantaneously. I only rode the bumps with it wadded and not stashed in a waist pouch but redeploying was uneventful. Have the PAL all the way out again to help with reinflation of the canopy. The new thicker A lines at the leading edge didn’t cut my bare hands so that’s an improvement.
Comparison to the 4.3m hybrid
The 4.3m hybrid is my daily driver and I love its stability when pointing upwind. However stashing it is a pain as it doesn’t depower straight away when pointing downwind. My redeploys as well usually end up with a line tangle of some sort or the canopy half inflates and rotates. For reference when i have borrowed a friend’s 3.1m hybrid the stash and redeploys were fantastic. Perhaps it’s just this size.
Overall impressions
Despite the technical nature of piloting this parawing i dont want to fly anything else now. One thing that people perhaps dont mention enough is the comfort when you are riding properly. I have a niggling left shoulder injury (a partial tear in my subscapularis) that complains when I’m riding toeside, with the orbit i was riding one handed overpowered with no pain. I’m sold. I’ve puffed the magic dragon and the rest of my quiver is getting a shakedown. I can see my quiver being now Orbit 3.5m & 4.5m, PT Skin 5.4m and that’s it. Take this review with a pinch of salt. I’m an average parawinger on the heavier side using the orbit for the second time. I can’t wait to take it out again!