Forums > Windsurfing General

Is the LT the best thing that ever happened to windsurfing? Or has it ruined it?

Reply
Created by Belly25 Two weeks ago, 22 Nov 2019
Belly25
NSW, 105 posts
22 Nov 2019 5:31AM
Thumbs Up

Just thought I'd start an LT thread for all the LT lovers out there to post about the love of their LT sport so they stop hijacking the other threads that have absolutely nothing to do with the LT.

Belly25
NSW, 105 posts
22 Nov 2019 5:35AM
Thumbs Up

I don't own an LT but I have had a go on one. I liked it but I found foiling to be better. Foiling in all of it's forms adds such a new dimension to our sport, progression not regression I say.

(Ah that feels better, ambushing a thread with content that is unrelated to the posts heading).

AUS 814
NSW, 342 posts
22 Nov 2019 7:20AM
Thumbs Up

Don't worry Richard G will be posting here shortly

Chris 249
NSW, 1994 posts
22 Nov 2019 8:21AM
Thumbs Up

While I perfectly understand your point, to be fair it should also be pointed out that the LT thread was derailed repeatedly by a foiling fan who repeatedly threw **** at the LT and LT sailors. If that was considered to be perfectly reasonable by foiling fans - and I don't think any of them objected to it - then they cannot complain if the same thing happens to their thread - especially since the LT thread did not claim that the board was "the best thing ever", which is way overblown and implicitly puts **** on other kit.

And no, neither the LT or foiling is the best thing ever since there can be no such thing.

Chris 249
NSW, 1994 posts
22 Nov 2019 8:24AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
Belly25 said..
I don't own an LT but I have had a go on one. I liked it but I found foiling to be better. Foiling in all of it's forms adds such a new dimension to our sport, progression not regression I say.

(Ah that feels better, ambushing a thread with content that is unrelated to the posts heading).


It's fine if you like foiling, but to claim that another type of board is a "regression" is the sort of sneer that gets people's back up. Kiters may just as well pour **** on your "slow, old-fashioned windfoiler" as being regressive.

Why is it so hard to just respect the gear and sailing that other people like?

Maddlad
WA, 419 posts
22 Nov 2019 6:38AM
Thumbs Up

Nobody cares what kitefoilers think, they wear their boardies over their wetsuits..

AUS1111
WA, 3349 posts
22 Nov 2019 8:27AM
Thumbs Up

You're all welcome to bring your foils and LTs to Screamin' Leeman tomorrow so you can decisively determine which is better in a 30 knot downwinder.

cammd
QLD, 2491 posts
22 Nov 2019 11:11AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
AUS1111 said..
You're all welcome to bring your foils and LTs to Screamin' Leeman tomorrow so you can decisively determine which is better in a 30 knot downwinder.


I reckon the Lt's would win that

RichardG
WA, 2896 posts
22 Nov 2019 9:31AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
AUS 814 said..
Don't worry Richard G will be posting here shortly

Here you go.

Scotty H O'Connor on facebook in October:

"Are people missing the point? The whole kit is retailing for $2799 now. I think it was $800 for the board which you could use your old rig on it (which l still use) l am seeing a huge resurgence in LT races all around Australia and Europe. People are having fun again with racing and the camaraderie after racing that what got most of us into it in the first place!! Who gives a f@& if it hasn't got a carbon fin!! There are plenty of high performance kits out there to keep the technology heads out there happy. This is a grass roots sport again. Let's not make the same mistakes as the past!! Thanks to Greg Johns, Brucey Wylie and a few other visionary's to getting the LT up and running. See you at the worlds in Perth next year. At least you know that every one is on the same gear not just a bigger cheque book ??

Scotty H O'Connor.... everything old is new again!! My club just brought 6 LT's and our first Friday afternoon we had 15 people racing ( yes some had their own boards) 3 races that were fun as , couple of beers ??and everyone went home happy and looking forward to the next races ?? "

Sounds good to me. Clubs are buying the boards for young and new sailors eg 6 boards etc. MBSC home of the 2020 worlds has 4 boards on order. Other clubs here in WA also are rumoured to have boards on or expected to be ordered.

Anyway foiling is good too even great. The LT has not ruined windsurfing. Its great too.

The LT is not the best but it is great and very good and its part of the best sport like foiling. Its been great to get back into course racing which died in WA for over a decade. Last windsurfer course race I did was the 1983 midwinters where Galvo, Snides, Nick Poll, Scotty McKercher, Simon King, Ian Barcham etc competed. Now in 2018-2019 all are back racing and more. We hope we can get the bridge to bridge back again too.

How many do you get out in a club one design foil race ?

How many clubs are buying foils ?

I hope foil grows in yacht clubs. What are you doing about it ?

SongofWind
4 posts
22 Nov 2019 11:09AM
Thumbs Up

Chris 249, why would so many prefer to sail on LT rather than an old raceboard, such as IMCO. Personally, I have sailed an IMCO a few times (hiring in a windsurf centre). I think IMCO is much more efficient in all wind speed with an adjustable mast track. since the CLR is different with centreboard up or down, changing mast foot position can keep similar mast rake angle of the rig. (Track forward for CB down, back for CB retracted). Once powered up, the sail is rake back most of the time. With an LT, the mast foot position is a compromise. Although I have no experience on LT, just be watching videos, it seems too far farwards for centreboard down which requires a very upright rig. Too easy to round up in strong wind and get slammed.
With footstraps (at least 7straps usually) one can easily control raceboard in chop and high speed without bouncing off. I also find it quite easy to turn once fully planing. It carves like a shortboard
Overall, I would say that old raceboard is much more technical and rewarding. LT is probably better for learning because of its soft deck(?)

Chris 249
NSW, 1994 posts
22 Nov 2019 2:42PM
Thumbs Up

Song, it's very personal. I sailed IMCO for years (including being twice 2nd in the nationals after they were out of the Olympics) and was into Raceboards well before they had their very first world title (in which I was part of the national team), so I know and love them. They were amazing fun when they were used as they were intended, which is for a mainly reaching course with a 12-15 knot wind limit on open water.

A few thoughts;

1- the RB's mast and CB position, big fin and low foot mean that it tacks much more slowly. You cannot work the small shifts like you can in an LT, and to be honest I always found tacking a RB to be painfully slow and frustrating. Many of us love working those small shifts by zipping the LT around through tacks even if we go slower than a RB. Others prefer speed and that's great.

2- The fact that the LT is twitchier in stronger winds is lots of fun for many of us. It's a bit like driving a fast manual car instead of a fast automatic car, or perhaps like skiing moguls rather than a perfectly groomed and flat ski slope. We love the fact that you have to respond to each wind gust and each wave. Personally I love it when windsurfing becomes a boathandling challenge, and in the LT that happens in lighter winds than it does in a RB. A RB in 20 knots is a test of speed because the board handles so well, an LT in 20 knots is a test of speed and handling. Some people dislike that and it's fine.

3- The rig's power moves around, but the other side is that the rig is very light - the sail is just 2kg. Some of us don't like heavy rigs, especially in something we often sail in light breezes and especially when they spend so much time raked that you are often effectively stopping them from falling backwards. The LT's upright rig almost balances itself in light winds.

4- Yep, with footstraps you can lock yourself in and that's nice, but in the straps with the track back you tend to sail a narrower range of downwind angles and styles. The LT has a wider range of fast wind angles; depending on the gusts, the strength, the waves and the tactical situation you may be gybing through high angles like a RB, or you could be going deeper, surfing the little waves in a wave the RB cannot do. On the LT you are dancing up and down, like walking the plank on a long surfboard. You have the fascinating challenge of staying stuck on by using balance and feel rather than just sticking your feet in straps. Some of us really love that, although we also love the fantastic feeling of a RB howling with the track back.

5- Oddly enough, in really strong winds the LT now seems to be handling better than the RBs with their 9.5s!

6- We don't pump upwind, which is a lot more fun to some of us. We have more varied events - course racing, marathon, slalom and freestyle. And there are more LT fleets around.

7- LT is $2700, RB is about $12000?. One is going to stay the same, the other could be obsolete next year.

8- "Technical" yes, but that seems to mean that there's a bigger gap between fast and slow sailors in speed. Many slower sailors get a bit discouraged by the gap. The LT fleet is closer together and because they tack fast and we don't pump upwind, slower sailors can do especially well in light winds.

9- The LT doesn't carve quite as well as a RB but you can still throw one-handed duck gybes on them. The LT is much more fun for me in light wind gybes, mark roundings etc because it turns faster.

10- I still have an IMCO, 2 old custom Naish RBs including a proto of the original pre-concave Pan Am, and an Equipe II. I haven't sailed them for ages but must get them out one day. They are great boards for charging along in a straight line if it's breezy. That's what the class was designed for. Personally I find them frustrating when used for windward/leeward flat water racing in light winds. If you love them, that's great!

PS - the guy who got 2nd in my class at the Australian nationals was top 10 in the world in the Olympic IMCO rankings, and 2nd in the youth worlds on an IMCO. The junior world IMCO champ and masters RB world champ were in my div at the LT worlds, with IMCO Olympians in other divisions. Our former national IMCO champ is a top LT sailor. There's a lot of people who love them both.

RichardG
WA, 2896 posts
22 Nov 2019 11:50AM
Thumbs Up

There is a good chance top RSX sailor and top foiler NZer, Antonio Cozzolino will do the Perth LT worlds next year I am told by a friend. Even some foilers like the chance to test their mettle against top sailors on one design gear. Anders Bringdal wants to come out too as he competed in 1984 and many others will be here too.

azuli
QLD, 203 posts
22 Nov 2019 2:01PM
Thumbs Up

regarding point 7. I doubt the Raceboard will be obsolete next year since 20+ year old RBs are still able to win races.
An 25yo F2 lightning won the 2018 QLD RB state champs, and a similar vintage Fanatic Mega Cat won it in 2019.
Also the $12K price estimate is over the top even for new gear.
Several guys here are racing RBs that cost them between $1200-2000 with rig, and are competitive with newer RBs.

Mark _australia
WA, 19610 posts
22 Nov 2019 12:13PM
Thumbs Up

Whats an LT anyway?

windsufering
VIC, 897 posts
22 Nov 2019 3:14PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
azuli said..
regarding point 7. I doubt the Raceboard will be obsolete next year since 20+ year old RBs are still able to win races.
An 25yo F2 lightning won the 2018 QLD RB state champs, and a similar vintage Fanatic Mega Cat won it in 2019.
Also the $12K price estimate is over the top even for new gear.
Several guys here are racing RBs that cost them between $1200-2000 with rig, and are competitive will modern new RBs.



Select to expand quote
azuli said..
regarding point 7. I doubt the Raceboard will be obsolete next year since 20+ year old RBs are still able to win races.
An 25yo F2 lightning won the 2018 QLD RB state champs, and a similar vintage Fanatic Mega Cat won it in 2019.
Also the $12K price estimate is over the top even for new gear.
Several guys here are racing RBs that cost them between $1200-2000 with rig, and are competitive will modern new RBs.


Wow all those guys that brought the latest and fancy gear wasted their money !

RichardG
WA, 2896 posts
22 Nov 2019 12:21PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
azuli said..
regarding point 7. I doubt the Raceboard will be obsolete next year since 20+ year old RBs are still able to win races.
An 25yo F2 lightning won the 2018 QLD RB state champs, and a similar vintage Fanatic Mega Cat won it in 2019.
Also the $12K price estimate is over the top even for new gear.
Several guys here are racing RBs that cost them between $1200-2000 with rig, and are competitive will modern new RBs.


I am glad to hear that. I have this 1993 Equipe CHS 1 will it be competitive ? Weight 13.8 kg a lighter version of the one design with powerbox and carbon dagger. Just fixed the straps, the zip corroded, now replaced zips with plastic zips and now replacing gasket. I have Mistral 7.4 m2 one design sails and mast and also Ezzy 9.5 Lion 3.



















azuli
QLD, 203 posts
22 Nov 2019 2:38PM
Thumbs Up

Sure will be competitive when used with a good RB sail or an RS:X rig
That board would be great fun to race here on Moreton Bay in the 20+kn northerlies and steep chop we get this time of year
The rest will come down to the sailor!

RichardG
WA, 2896 posts
22 Nov 2019 12:39PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
azuli said..
Sure will be competitive when used with a good RB sail or an RS:X rig
That board would be great fun to race here on Moreton Bay in the 20+kn northerlies and steep chop we get this time of year
The rest will come down to the sailor!



Thanks. Yes absolutely. Should be some very cheap RSX rigs available as we head out of 2020.

cammd
QLD, 2491 posts
22 Nov 2019 3:04PM
Thumbs Up

Nice board RichardG, awesome condition looks like new. I would love to find one of the late model Pan Ams but almost never see one.

RichardG
WA, 2896 posts
22 Nov 2019 1:09PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
cammd said..
Nice board RichardG, awesome condition looks like new. I would love to find one of the late model Pan Ams but almost never see one.


Thanks.The best advice is to look in the UK and get one. Pay say 200 pounds sterling for one and import it. Cost to do so is 336 pounds by sea (8 weeks with angloshipping UK www.anglopacific.co.uk). If you do that all up around 1000 dollars. Duty and GST small but small fee for self assessed customs clearance about $100. I have seen some Equipe 2 as good as the above. It is not always easy to get your hands on them. Good thing is many of them are in top condition and include Mistral board bags.

mob dog
NSW, 9 posts
22 Nov 2019 4:16PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
RichardG said..

azuli said..
regarding point 7. I doubt the Raceboard will be obsolete next year since 20+ year old RBs are still able to win races.
An 25yo F2 lightning won the 2018 QLD RB state champs, and a similar vintage Fanatic Mega Cat won it in 2019.
Also the $12K price estimate is over the top even for new gear.
Several guys here are racing RBs that cost them between $1200-2000 with rig, and are competitive will modern new RBs.



I am glad to hear that. I have this 1993 Equipe CHS 1 will it be competitive ? Weight 13.8 kg a lighter version of the one design with powerbox and carbon dagger. Just fixed the straps, the zip corroded, now replaced zips with plastic zips and now replacing gasket. I have Mistral 7.4 m2 one design sails and mast and also Ezzy 9.5 Lion 3.





















Select to expand quote
RichardG said..

azuli said..
regarding point 7. I doubt the Raceboard will be obsolete next year since 20+ year old RBs are still able to win races.
An 25yo F2 lightning won the 2018 QLD RB state champs, and a similar vintage Fanatic Mega Cat won it in 2019.
Also the $12K price estimate is over the top even for new gear.
Several guys here are racing RBs that cost them between $1200-2000 with rig, and are competitive will modern new RBs.



I am glad to hear that. I have this 1993 Equipe CHS 1 will it be competitive ? Weight 13.8 kg a lighter version of the one design with powerbox and carbon dagger. Just fixed the straps, the zip corroded, now replaced zips with plastic zips and now replacing gasket. I have Mistral 7.4 m2 one design sails and mast and also Ezzy 9.5 Lion 3.





















Wow that's a nice looking board. New high tec gear is great fun but I also love the feeling of these long boards in strong wind being right down in the straps with 3+ metres of board in front of you, looking at this board represents to me what windsurfing is all about.

RichardG
WA, 2896 posts
22 Nov 2019 1:30PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
moba said..Wow that's a nice looking board. New high tec gear is great fun but I also love the feeling of these long boards in strong wind being right down in the straps with 3+ metres of board in front of you, looking at this board represents to me what windsurfing is all about.






RichardG said..







azuli said..
regarding point 7. I doubt the Raceboard will be obsolete next year since 20+ year old RBs are still able to win races.
An 25yo F2 lightning won the 2018 QLD RB state champs, and a similar vintage Fanatic Mega Cat won it in 2019.
Also the $12K price estimate is over the top even for new gear.
Several guys here are racing RBs that cost them between $1200-2000 with rig, and are competitive will modern new RBs.









I am glad to hear that. I have this 1993 Equipe CHS 1 will it be competitive ? Weight 13.8 kg a lighter version of the one design with powerbox and carbon dagger. Just fixed the straps, the zip corroded, now replaced zips with plastic zips and now replacing gasket. I have Mistral 7.4 m2 one design sails and mast and also Ezzy 9.5 Lion 3.
































RichardG said..







azuli said..
regarding point 7. I doubt the Raceboard will be obsolete next year since 20+ year old RBs are still able to win races.
An 25yo F2 lightning won the 2018 QLD RB state champs, and a similar vintage Fanatic Mega Cat won it in 2019.
Also the $12K price estimate is over the top even for new gear.
Several guys here are racing RBs that cost them between $1200-2000 with rig, and are competitive will modern new RBs.









I am glad to hear that. I have this 1993 Equipe CHS 1 will it be competitive ? Weight 13.8 kg a lighter version of the one design with powerbox and carbon dagger. Just fixed the straps, the zip corroded, now replaced zips with plastic zips and now replacing gasket. I have Mistral 7.4 m2 one design sails and mast and also Ezzy 9.5 Lion 3.


























Wow that's a nice looking board. New high tec gear is great fun but I also love the feeling of these long boards in strong wind being right down in the straps with 3+ metres of board in front of you, looking at this board represents to me what windsurfing is all about.







Yes thanks agreed. The LT can rail upwind and in very light wind beat the raceboards such as IMCO or Equipe 2 or a very good LT sailor can match them upwind in a breeze. Off the wind the RBs will take off. The LT is however a joy to race and no one races RBs here in WA. That is the problem with RB here and the LT is one design.

AUS 814
NSW, 342 posts
22 Nov 2019 4:48PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
Mark _australia said..
Whats an LT anyway?


AUS 814
NSW, 342 posts
22 Nov 2019 5:11PM
Thumbs Up

Have to agree that quote for a RB setup is way off.

azuli
QLD, 203 posts
22 Nov 2019 5:13PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
The LT can rail upwind and in very light wind beat the raceboards such as IMCO or Equipe 2 or a very good LT sailor can match them upwind in a breeze. Off the wind the RBs will take off.


Results from mixed fleet board racing here has shown RBs to be quite a lot faster than LTs in all winds.

There has also been some interesting results between RBs and RaceFoils. In light and patchy winds (<7 kns) most RaceFoils struggled to get around the course, or took longer than RBs because of the low angles and longer distances they needed to cover. But once the wind was steady 8+kns the lead RaceFoils (with latest race foils and sails) could finish a 30min race 5-10mins ahead of the first RB.
Also, the difference between a RB and FreeRace Foil kit around a windward/leeward course is not as much.

RichardG
WA, 2896 posts
22 Nov 2019 3:42PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
azuli said..Results from mixed fleet board racing here has shown RBs to be quite a lot faster than LTs in all winds.

There has also been some interesting results between RBs and RaceFoils. In light and patchy winds (Also, the difference between a RB and FreeRace Foil kit around a windward/leeward course is not as much.




The LT can rail upwind and in very light wind beat the raceboards such as IMCO or Equipe 2 or a very good LT sailor can match them upwind in a breeze. Off the wind the RBs will take off.





Results from mixed fleet board racing here has shown RBs to be quite a lot faster than LTs in all winds.

There has also been some interesting results between RBs and RaceFoils. In light and patchy winds (Also, the difference between a RB and FreeRace Foil kit around a windward/leeward course is not as much.




Yes I would have to concede modern raceboards are faster but we have seen some mixed results with IMCOs losing to the LT but well equipped Speeds and Mistral Equipes have beaten the LT in face-offs. However it is not always easy for them to do so. See below post from 25 November 2018:

"When Mike Kilduff (NZ 12), 2016 World Raceboard 13th placer, occasionally sails his Mistral Equipe 2 (as he has a few weeks ago) he has won over the line against the LT. However he said the following on the competitors he is facing from the LT contingent, so while Mike got three wins over the line on his Mistral Equipe 2 with 90s NP World Cup Racing MKIII 7.4 m2 sail, he said: "The LT is fast and points high upwind. Those other guys demonstrated great technique railing their boards for upwind height and speed. I struggled to compete upwind. Downwind I'm much faster which saved me.." Mike Kilduff speed advantage is clear for example he achieved a GPS speed of 29.4 knots on the Equipe 2 several weeks ago."

In the LT fleet was Scotty McKercher, Mike Galvin and others.

AUS 814
NSW, 342 posts
22 Nov 2019 7:22PM
Thumbs Up

Hang on he was using a 1990,s 7.4 sail, hardly a comparison to a Starboard Phantom rb with a 9.5

RichardG
WA, 2896 posts
22 Nov 2019 4:27PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
AUS 814 said..
Hang on he was using a 1990,s 7.4 sail, hardly a comparison to a Starboard Phantom rb with a 9.5

Truly it is. Captain Sensible would agree.Yes and I would have to concede modern raceboards are faster particularly the over 300 litre models you refer to with batwings with the specialised 9.5 m2 raceboard sails from the likes of Demon, Severne, Loft or Aerolite sails . I don't have any race evidence but I am sure you do as the font of all knowledge.

AUS 814
NSW, 342 posts
22 Nov 2019 7:42PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
RichardG said..

AUS 814 said..
Hang on he was using a 1990,s 7.4 sail, hardly a comparison to a Starboard Phantom rb with a 9.5


Truly it is. Captain Sensible would agree.Yes and I would have to concede modern raceboards are faster particularly the over 300 litre models you refer to with batwings with the specialised 9.5 m2 raceboard sails from the likes of Demon, Severne, Loft or Aerolite sails . I don't have any race evidence but I am sure you do as the font of all knowledge.


Well being able to sail and race a RB, LT and race foil set up I think my knowledge is pretty good.

RichardG
WA, 2896 posts
22 Nov 2019 4:49PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
AUS 814 said..Well being able to sail and race a RB, LT and race foil set up I think my knowledge is pretty good.


RichardG said..



AUS 814 said..
Hang on he was using a 1990,s 7.4 sail, hardly a comparison to a Starboard Phantom rb with a 9.5




Truly it is. Captain Sensible would agree.Yes and I would have to concede modern raceboards are faster particularly the over 300 litre models you refer to with batwings with the specialised 9.5 m2 raceboard sails from the likes of Demon, Severne, Loft or Aerolite sails . I don't have any race evidence but I am sure you do as the font of all knowledge.



Well being able to sail and race a RB, LT and race foil set up I think my knowledge is pretty good.




Yes it is. Much respect to you.

Chris 249
NSW, 1994 posts
22 Nov 2019 8:13PM
Thumbs Up

The LT is normally nothing like as quick as a RB. I'd reckon the old measurement that has the RB about 22% quicker is about right, partly because the RB can pump upwind.

The pricing I came up with earlier was from when I priced a new board with two complete rigs for the worlds. As a former RB racer back when the class was stacked with pros like Naish, Bjorn etc I would always buy two masts, booms etc if I was going to spend enough to buy a completely competitive board. The prices I could find were $4700 for a board; $1500-1700 for booms ($3k); $1500 average for two sails (or more for Demons, if I recall correctly) plus mast bases, CBs etc.

Last time I did RBs I hopped back into the class and made it into the top 6 or 7 with a throw-away board I was given that was literally falling to bits, an IMCO mast that didn't fit the $200 8.5, centreboards from another board, and an IMCO boom that was too short until someone lent me one. So yes, you can get into the trophies at national level with old gear but it's slower than new gear.

I was using new prices because otherwise I could say that the Qld LT championships could be won by Dennis on a well kept One Design worth $350, which is probably quite correct. And while gear is a development class can be competitive year after year, by their very nature there can also new designs that will make everything obsolete.

RBs are awesome to sail, no doubt about it. All windsurfers are awesome for the right people.



Subscribe
Reply

Forums > Windsurfing General


"Is the LT the best thing that ever happened to windsurfing? Or has it ruined it?" started by Belly25