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Is the LT the best thing that ever happened to windsurfing? Or has it ruined it?

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Created by Belly25 Two weeks ago, 22 Nov 2019
cammd
QLD, 2491 posts
Tuesday , 3 Dec 2019 9:22PM
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MatStirl said..

windsufering said..


RichardG said..
Will the LT be at Sail Melbourne ?




No the Glide is



Too many classes.
The Glide looks great (looks similar to my Mistral Prodigy) but how will it ever develop a class following in such a saturated market.

LT - all ages/poor (time or financial)
Techno - junior
Foil - senior/rich

Rest just need to fade away.
Sad to see raceboard go mind you.


You assume by reducing classes you will concentrate the sailors and increase the fleets of the few remaining ones. My bet is the outcome would be a small increase in the remaining classes but an overall reduction in participation. Why would you seek that outcome.

RichardG
WA, 2896 posts
Tuesday , 3 Dec 2019 8:35PM
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windsufering said..Next year [at SailMelbourne] would be interesting ifoil v kite foil probably share the same course too










RichardG said..
iFoil ?












Next year would be interesting
ifoil v kite foil probably share the same course too






Kitefoil looks cool as shown here in WA at Fremantle Sailing Club:

www.fsc.com.au/onwater/step-up-to-foiling/

&feature=emb_logo

Which "foil" will have a bigger fleet ?

How will windfoils iFoil displace kitefoiling in clubs ?

Will iFoil get into clubs ? or will it face the same barriers, lack of popularity as RSX has ? RSX is scarce in WA. There are a few tied up in some sort of elite bureaucracy but they are almost never seen.

Who will be faster around the foiling course ?

At least windfoilers on the iFoil will enjoy their racing tactically as do all classes, and the relative high speeds of iFoil even though that being said they are relatively slow compared to kitefoilers.

Will iFoil be "outgunned" and outnumbered by the more flexible Olympic kitefoiling rules ?

Is kitefoiling more appealing and cheaper than the iFoil ?

I hope iFoil can show us its mettle soon. The fact we have to wait until 2020-2021 that is somewhat bizarre. It also handicaps it compared to kitefoiling.

Good thing there is LT, Techno, Raceboard, Glide and other classes to satiate the masses.

CJW
NSW, 1588 posts
Tuesday , 4 Dec 2019 12:25AM
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Not sure why you bring up kite foiling, it's a completely different sport and far far more niche than windfoiling. I have never ever seen a local kitefoil race in NSW. Sure the world HPT had a round in Sydney but save for that is there organised racing anywhere on the east coast? You can't really rock up with one at most local sailing clubs.

Speed wise, nothing short of an AC50/SailGP machine can compete with them...and you know what in some conditions I reckon they'd struggle against them, the Olympic kitefoil isn't quite in the same league as the setups on the hydrofoil Pro tour but would still smoke a windfoil. But again what's the point rally comparing them?

Speaking to the topic, anything that brings people back to the sport is a good thing. Here's how I see the LT; It's something you have in the shed and crack it out on a sat Arvo to have a fun race down at the local club. It's cheap, easy to sail and it's appeal is aimed smack at people who used to do that exact thing 30 years ago. Yep, cool, love it. Kids will sail one because mum or dad have one, however, as soon as most kids see someone on a foil, in my opinion they'll want one. Because it's now the Olympic class the junior pathways will hopefully develop. Now there's costs and all sorts of other things associated with that but we can only hope.

That said it's pretty tough to get kids interested in this sort of stuff these days. When I was younger our junior fleet was probably triple the size of the entire current fleet at my old club these days....that says a lot. And it's the same everywhere.

RichardG
WA, 2896 posts
Tuesday , 3 Dec 2019 10:19PM
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CJW said..
Not sure why you bring up kite foiling, it's a completely different sport and far far more niche than windfoiling. I have never ever seen a local kitefoil race in NSW. Sure the world HPT had a round in Sydney but save for that is there organised racing anywhere on the east coast? You can't really rock up with one at most local sailing clubs.

Speed wise, nothing short of an AC50/SailGP machine can compete with them...and you know what in some conditions I reckon they'd struggle against them, the Olympic kitefoil isn't quite in the same league as the setups on the hydrofoil Pro tour but would still smoke a windfoil. But again what's the point rally comparing them?

Speaking to the topic, anything that brings people back to the sport is a good thing. Here's how I see the LT; It's something you have in the shed and crack it out on a sat Arvo to have a fun race down at the local club. It's cheap, easy to sail and it's appeal is aimed smack at people who used to do that exact thing 30 years ago. Yep, cool, love it. Kids will sail one because mum or dad have one, however, as soon as most kids see someone on a foil, in my opinion they'll want one. Because it's now the Olympic class the junior pathways will hopefully develop. Now there's costs and all sorts of other things associated with that but we can only hope.

That said it's pretty tough to get kids interested in this sort of stuff these days. When I was younger our junior fleet was probably triple the size of the entire current fleet at my old club these days....that says a lot. And it's the same everywhere.




Agree but my point is in WA, it appears on the face of it, that Kitefoil has first mover advantage over iFoil. Its also faster, cheaper more flexible and more accessible to the folks who already kite and the young people see it and like it. Ken Winner knows that. iFoil has work to do but its working so slowly now at great cost, losing market share in WA a relative small market. NSW might be different. Starboard needs to move quicker with production but I suspect deliveries might be a year away and then it won't be easy to get supply so fleets will be small and elite, not to mention cost of acquisition at play. In any event, good thing there is LT, Techno, Raceboard, Glide and other classes to satiate the masses.

t36
3 posts
Wednesday , 4 Dec 2019 1:04AM
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"In any event, good thing there is LT, Techno, Raceboard, Glide and other classes to satiate the masses."

What masses? How many surfers are really participating in races? 2 from hundert?

In germany on our lake: 160 surf club members plus 40-50 regular windsurfers coming to our location (it's one of the best lake in Northern bavaria): 1 woman is doing successful speedsurfing and 2 guys are competing in slalom races. So it will be <2-3%.
And no regular surfer cares about it.

In Greece (we have a house) from 150-200 surfers in the argolic gulf: 1 friend is top 3 national championship in slalom, my best friend does slalom in the master class.
A few years ago my best friend organized a formula event in the argolic gulf - it was a great success - but many many of the regular surfers complaint, that during these racing days there were blocked parts on water and on beach for the races :-)

During the olympic games with Nikos Kaklamanakis (who won several titles and medals) long long ago, the greece surfer cared that years about the olympic windsurfing. Some bought the RB class boards these years - I havn't seen them on water for many years now.
The olympic class was helpful for us windsurfers.

Is kiting or now kitefoiling so successful, because it's good to racing (and faster as iFOIL) - no.
It's so successful, because it's easy to learn, cheap, easy to transport, cool, fast and modern. The opposite of LT.
Why should people outside of surfing (the thread question was: is LT saving or destroying WS) - choose a LT to learn and perform surfing?

LT will be a successfull racing class for an fast aging sport. If I would care about the future of windsurfing, my hope would be a combinationboard able to provide SL and Foil.

P.s. we have LT in Europe and a friend in our surf-forum is taking part in the races and tells us. I surfed in the eighties Div.2 und RB (Browning Kevlar) boards, but I went immediately to short fast boards, when available. I planned to buy a LT, but after a long Foil saison I don't see a need for me anymore. Flying begins in 7-8 knots.

RichardG
WA, 2896 posts
Wednesday , 4 Dec 2019 7:51AM
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We have probably close to 40 in WA and we had 20 in a race just over a week ago. That is not bad and its as good as IMCO (a dead class) was for a while in the same location perhaps better in terms of numbers as it is more accessible and clubs are buying the LT for youth training. Germany and Greece might be different but so be it. Glad you are enjoying foiling (which is great by the way) on the lake and if the LT one design course racing, slalom and freestyle are not for you then good for you. We have ex PWA wave world champions, SUP champs and top windsurfers and foilers in the LT WA fleet so there are many who do different classes and even skiff champs and former Americas cup sailors. We are getting large fleets in Australia at State and National level larger than most other sailing classes. That has got to be a good thing.

cammd
QLD, 2491 posts
Wednesday , 4 Dec 2019 10:05AM
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RichardG said..
We have probably close to 40 in WA and we had 20 in a race just over a week ago. That is not bad and its as good as IMCO (a dead class) was for a while in the same location perhaps better in terms of numbers as it is more accessible and clubs are buying the LT for youth training. Germany and Greece might be different but so be it. Glad you are enjoying foiling (which is great by the way) on the lake and if the LT one design course racing, slalom and freestyle are not for you then good for you. We have ex PWA wave world champions, SUP champs and top windsurfers and foilers in the LT WA fleet so there are many who do different classes and even skiff champs and former Americas cup sailors. We are getting large fleets in Australia at State and National level larger than most other sailing classes. That has got to be a good thing.


It is a good thing and I don't think the increase in numbers has been at the expense of other classes in Australia which makes it a really good thing.

RichardG
WA, 2896 posts
Wednesday , 4 Dec 2019 12:31PM
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cammd said..









RichardG said..
We have probably close to 40 in WA and we had 20 in a race just over a week ago. That is not bad and its as good as IMCO (a dead class) was for a while in the same location perhaps better in terms of numbers as it is more accessible and clubs are buying the LT for youth training. Germany and Greece might be different but so be it. Glad you are enjoying foiling (which is great by the way) on the lake and if the LT one design course racing, slalom and freestyle are not for you then good for you. We have ex PWA wave world champions, SUP champs and top windsurfers and foilers in the LT WA fleet so there are many who do different classes and even skiff champs and former Americas cup sailors. We are getting large fleets in Australia at State and National level larger than most other sailing classes. That has got to be a good thing.











It is a good thing and I don't think the increase in numbers has been at the expense of other classes in Australia which makes it a really good thing.



Sure is we had zero LTs in WA in around August 2018 racing now we have a potential racing fleet in WA of 40 almost and still growing. Don't see any other windsurfing or sailing fleets growing at that rate in that state so it speaks volumes for the class growth in a short time. 40 beats the 20 or so IMCO that were in WA in the 90s in the IMCO era and that is an achievement. Its good and its real. Most LT owners windsurf , surf, SUP or sail other craft as well. Its sustainable and youth are also now joining in, seeing the benefit of fleet racing.

MatStirl
QLD, 63 posts
Wednesday , 4 Dec 2019 6:46PM
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cammd said..



MatStirl said..




windsufering said..





RichardG said..
Will the LT be at Sail Melbourne ?







No the Glide is






Too many classes.
The Glide looks great (looks similar to my Mistral Prodigy) but how will it ever develop a class following in such a saturated market.

LT - all ages/poor (time or financial)
Techno - junior
Foil - senior/rich

Rest just need to fade away.
Sad to see raceboard go mind you.





You assume by reducing classes you will concentrate the sailors and increase the fleets of the few remaining ones. My bet is the outcome would be a small increase in the remaining classes but an overall reduction in participation. Why would you seek that outcome.




That's your outcome. Not mine.
I do think manufacturers produce too many varieties of gear these days and we buy it which doesn't help race fleets.

Bigger fleets would inspire and maintain more interest than small disparate fleets. I've only bought the LT to race in a fleet. If lots were sailing the raceboard or Techno I'd get that.

We got 6 LT's at my local club the other day. Before that there were no windsurfers racing. Ever.

RichardG
WA, 2896 posts
Wednesday , 4 Dec 2019 5:14PM
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The LT is simple, fun and a good platform for round the buoys racing and can be used for freestyle and slalom competition in one design. It can even be used as surfboard or SUP. Now high performance windsurfing gear has been great but in the last 20 years the greater emphasis on high performance has seen the decline of windsurfing.The idea behind the LT is to get people back in light winds enjoying the glide and racing and increase the participation rate which it is doing for young and old. The LT is the cheapest sailing class in any yacht club at present. That was also the case in the 1980s when the One Design was popular. Now it is not perfect but it is a recipe for success. Nothing has been ruined.

RichardG
WA, 2896 posts
Friday , 6 Dec 2019 9:32AM
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News from the Siam Cup.

The family is growing at Siam Cup: 7 Cobranded distributors FOR THE WINDSURFER LT: Mistral, Naish, Exocet, Windsurfer class, I-99, Starboard and the news of the day NSP (surf and paddle brand). The class is going gangbusters !

I understand Severne is next.





jusavina
QLD, 1228 posts
Friday , 6 Dec 2019 11:57AM
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Which one is faster?

RichardG
WA, 2896 posts
Friday , 6 Dec 2019 10:13AM
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jusavina said..
Which one is faster?



The sailor is more important and determines the speed since it is one design. I think the Exocet one looks the best.

azuli
QLD, 203 posts
Friday , 6 Dec 2019 1:51PM
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jusavina said..
Which one is faster?


The red one

Cluffy
NSW, 350 posts
Friday , 6 Dec 2019 4:47PM
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The one with the mistral scheme. Oh the nostalgia...

Gestalt
QLD, 12250 posts
Friday , 6 Dec 2019 5:07PM
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I prefer the original LT. the others are just copies.

MatStirl
QLD, 63 posts
Friday , 6 Dec 2019 7:09PM
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I don't get the co branding.
I know it's just some livery but I like even a non sailor knowing it's the same gear/brand.
Big companies only have one logo after all.

AUS 814
NSW, 342 posts
Friday , 6 Dec 2019 8:17PM
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MatStirl said..
I don't get the co branding.
I know it's just some livery but I like even a non sailor knowing it's the same gear/brand.
Big companies only have one logo after all.


I agree cannot see the point, exactly the same board from same factory

Gestalt
QLD, 12250 posts
Friday , 6 Dec 2019 8:24PM
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the point is that more boards made equals cheaper production.

MatStirl
QLD, 63 posts
Saturday , 7 Dec 2019 5:40AM
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For me too many brands/varieties of gear and ignoring beginners/intermediates is what wrecked windsurf racing in the first place.

I'd like the 'Windsurfer' to stick it up the brands and dominate the race market on their own.

Chris249
290 posts
Saturday , 7 Dec 2019 4:01AM
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jusavina said..
Which one is faster?


All of them??

Chris249
290 posts
Saturday , 7 Dec 2019 4:03AM
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AUS 814 said..

MatStirl said..
I don't get the co branding.
I know it's just some livery but I like even a non sailor knowing it's the same gear/brand.
Big companies only have one logo after all.



I agree cannot see the point, exactly the same board from same factory


The main point is that all brands can cooperate to rebuild the sport without having to harm their own branding. Mistral couldn't promote a board class run and built by Starboard but they can promote the LT

Paducah
598 posts
Saturday , 7 Dec 2019 5:45AM
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MatStirl said..
For me too many brands/varieties of gear and ignoring beginners/intermediates is what wrecked windsurf racing in the first place.

I'd like the 'Windsurfer' to stick it up the brands and dominate the race market on their own.




The great myth: "the industry is ignoring the beginners"

For just a few over the last 25+ years:
HiFly Revo, Motion, Mambo
Starboard Starts, Gos and Rios, Serenity
Mistral Superlight II, Prodigy, Ntrance; Pacifico (both the SII and Prodigy were intended to be OD classes)
F2 Phoenix, Discovery
Fanatic Viper
Kona everything
Bic Novas, Techno 293OD/180, Beach
JP Funster
Exocet Cruiser
Bic, Exocet, Naish, JP Windsups plus windsups from probably a dozen other companies I don't know about.
A crapton of inflatables from Mistral Windglider to modern inflatable windsup and planing boards.

I've owned at least six boards off this list.

MatStirl
QLD, 63 posts
Saturday , 7 Dec 2019 7:58AM
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Paducah said..

MatStirl said..
For me too many brands/varieties of gear and ignoring beginners/intermediates is what wrecked windsurf racing in the first place.

I'd like the 'Windsurfer' to stick it up the brands and dominate the race market on their own.




The great myth: "the industry is ignoring the beginners"

For just a few over the last 25+ years:
HiFly Revo, Motion, Mambo
Starboard Starts, Gos and Rios, Serenity
Mistral Superlight II, Prodigy, Ntrance; Pacifico (both the SII and Prodigy were intended to be OD classes)
F2 Phoenix, Discovery
Fanatic Viper
Kona everything
Bic Novas, Techno 293D, 180, Beach
JP Funster
Exocet Cruiser
Bic, Exocet, Naish, JP Windsups plus windsups from probably a dozen other companies I don't know about.
A crapton of inflatables from Mistral Windglider to modern inflatable windsup and planing boards.

I've owned at least six boards off this list.


That's the issue - unlike in the one design days there has been limited chance for any one race/beginner board to gain a big following because everyone creates there own.
Bic, who has one of the few successful race classes in the Techno has ready brought out a foil version that will presumably eat into the starboard Ifoil olympic fleets.

The manufacturers interests are understandably about making money, market share and a range to suit all. Unfortunately they can't be or aren't interested in letting someone else's gear dominate the beginner/race market - even if it's for the good of the sport.

Maybe the co-branding is the compromise that had to be made?
Still seems odd.

Gestalt
QLD, 12250 posts
Saturday , 7 Dec 2019 8:12AM
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Paducah said..



MatStirl said..
For me too many brands/varieties of gear and ignoring beginners/intermediates is what wrecked windsurf racing in the first place.

I'd like the 'Windsurfer' to stick it up the brands and dominate the race market on their own.







The great myth: "the industry is ignoring the beginners"

For just a few over the last 25+ years:
HiFly Revo, Motion, Mambo
Starboard Starts, Gos and Rios, Serenity
Mistral Superlight II, Prodigy, Ntrance; Pacifico (both the SII and Prodigy were intended to be OD classes)
F2 Phoenix, Discovery
Fanatic Viper
Kona everything
Bic Novas, Techno 293OD/180, Beach
JP Funster
Exocet Cruiser
Bic, Exocet, Naish, JP Windsups plus windsups from probably a dozen other companies I don't know about.
A crapton of inflatables from Mistral Windglider to modern inflatable windsup and planing boards.

I've owned at least six boards off this list.




you should have just bought a windsurfer. a lot cheaper, and almost unbreakable.

the Lt and WOD all play together now.

i think you guys answered your own question re co branding.

we should all look to the industry that put ego and image behind them and joined forces for the good of the sport.

get over the mines bigger and better than yours bull**** and just go sailing.

cammd
QLD, 2491 posts
Saturday , 7 Dec 2019 8:28AM
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Gestalt said..

Paducah said..




MatStirl said..
For me too many brands/varieties of gear and ignoring beginners/intermediates is what wrecked windsurf racing in the first place.

I'd like the 'Windsurfer' to stick it up the brands and dominate the race market on their own.








The great myth: "the industry is ignoring the beginners"

For just a few over the last 25+ years:
HiFly Revo, Motion, Mambo
Starboard Starts, Gos and Rios, Serenity
Mistral Superlight II, Prodigy, Ntrance; Pacifico (both the SII and Prodigy were intended to be OD classes)
F2 Phoenix, Discovery
Fanatic Viper
Kona everything
Bic Novas, Techno 293OD/180, Beach
JP Funster
Exocet Cruiser
Bic, Exocet, Naish, JP Windsups plus windsups from probably a dozen other companies I don't know about.
A crapton of inflatables from Mistral Windglider to modern inflatable windsup and planing boards.

I've owned at least six boards off this list.





you should have just bought a windsurfer. a lot cheaper, and almost unbreakable.

the Lt and WOD all play together now.

i think you guys answered your own question re co branding.

we should all look to the industry that put ego and image behind them and joined forces for the good of the sport.

get over the mines bigger and better than yours bull**** and just go sailing.


If that were to happen none of us would even have footstraps let alone other modern innovations

Gestalt
QLD, 12250 posts
Saturday , 7 Dec 2019 8:32AM
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cammd said..

Gestalt said..


Paducah said..





MatStirl said..
For me too many brands/varieties of gear and ignoring beginners/intermediates is what wrecked windsurf racing in the first place.

I'd like the 'Windsurfer' to stick it up the brands and dominate the race market on their own.









The great myth: "the industry is ignoring the beginners"

For just a few over the last 25+ years:
HiFly Revo, Motion, Mambo
Starboard Starts, Gos and Rios, Serenity
Mistral Superlight II, Prodigy, Ntrance; Pacifico (both the SII and Prodigy were intended to be OD classes)
F2 Phoenix, Discovery
Fanatic Viper
Kona everything
Bic Novas, Techno 293OD/180, Beach
JP Funster
Exocet Cruiser
Bic, Exocet, Naish, JP Windsups plus windsups from probably a dozen other companies I don't know about.
A crapton of inflatables from Mistral Windglider to modern inflatable windsup and planing boards.

I've owned at least six boards off this list.






you should have just bought a windsurfer. a lot cheaper, and almost unbreakable.

the Lt and WOD all play together now.

i think you guys answered your own question re co branding.

we should all look to the industry that put ego and image behind them and joined forces for the good of the sport.

get over the mines bigger and better than yours bull**** and just go sailing.



If that were to happen none of us would even have footstraps let alone other modern innovations


its ok to be uninformed. the WOD has footstraps.

Paducah
598 posts
Saturday , 7 Dec 2019 6:52AM
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Gestalt said..

you should have just bought a windsurfer. a lot cheaper, and almost unbreakable.


And totally unsuitable for the task at hand for my needs when I bought my boards. Not to mention in my part of the world, the WOD hasn't been seen in the wild for about 25+ yrs. Quite trying to pretend that the WOD/LT is the answer to all problems for everyone - it's not. It does certain things very well. Other things, not so much.

Back to my original point which you did not dispute: the industry has been making beginner friendly boards pretty consistently over time. We, as the windsurfing general public, chose not to buy them. That's on us.

There's not much fundamentally different with the LT vs a dozen other similar boards other than the critical mass of enough nostalgia to get people to buy them.

Gestalt
QLD, 12250 posts
Saturday , 7 Dec 2019 9:17AM
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Paducah said..

Gestalt said..

you should have just bought a windsurfer. a lot cheaper, and almost unbreakable.



And totally unsuitable for the task at hand for my needs when I bought my boards. Not to mention in my part of the world, the WOD hasn't been seen in the wild for about 25+ yrs. Quite trying to pretend that the WOD/LT is the answer to all problems for everyone - it's not. It does certain things very well. Other things, not so much.

Back to my original point which you did not dispute: the industry has been making beginner friendly boards pretty consistently over time. We, as the windsurfing general public, chose not to buy them. That's on us.

There's not much fundamentally different with the LT vs a dozen other similar boards other than the critical mass of enough nostalgia to get people to buy them.


you choose not to buy them but many many did chose to buy them.

your just being argumentative. you say the LT/Wod doesnt suit your needs then go on to say its fundamentally the same as the boards you bought which you listed above and bought at least 6 of.

Paducah
598 posts
Saturday , 7 Dec 2019 8:05AM
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Gestalt said..

Paducah said..


Gestalt said..

you should have just bought a windsurfer. a lot cheaper, and almost unbreakable.




And totally unsuitable for the task at hand for my needs when I bought my boards. Not to mention in my part of the world, the WOD hasn't been seen in the wild for about 25+ yrs. Quite trying to pretend that the WOD/LT is the answer to all problems for everyone - it's not. It does certain things very well. Other things, not so much.

Back to my original point which you did not dispute: the industry has been making beginner friendly boards pretty consistently over time. We, as the windsurfing general public, chose not to buy them. That's on us.

There's not much fundamentally different with the LT vs a dozen other similar boards other than the critical mass of enough nostalgia to get people to buy them.



you choose not to buy them but many many did chose to buy them.

your just being argumentative. you say the LT/Wod doesnt suit your needs then go on to say its fundamentally the same as the boards you bought which you listed above and bought at least 6 of.


The LT didn't exist in 2001 when I bought my Start - can I be any more clear than that? FFS... WOD are non -existent where I live. Yeah, it's really my fault for not buying a board no one has seen here in close to 30 yrs. I bought all these before the LT came out. I didn't start windsurfing in 2018.

The Start was the perfect board for my needs. It's damn hard for a seven yr old to tack anything longer with a 2.1 sail. Yeah, he'd have had a ball with a tippy board that weighed almost as much as he did and virtually untackable. Great choice that... The LT/WOD fits your needs. It wouldn't have fit mine. But, it's me being argumentative for wanting something different than you.

I said the LT is fundamentally the same as the Kona, Exocent windsup, F2 Viper , Starboard Rio, Bic Nova and a crapton of other 300cm long, 80cm wide boards with a centerboard.

Again, you still haven't disputed the point of my original post other than to say I was wrong for not buying a board that didn't exist at the time.



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"Is the LT the best thing that ever happened to windsurfing? Or has it ruined it?" started by Belly25